tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18468281.post5969206209602425779..comments2023-10-11T07:31:30.944-06:00Comments on Charity Grace: So Much More...Than What God Requires?Charity Gracehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11689246981362864456noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18468281.post-32827274632272363872018-01-04T15:48:09.900-06:002018-01-04T15:48:09.900-06:00
Charity, your articles regarding this book are aw...<br />Charity, your articles regarding this book are awesome, gracious and very wisely written. I could NOT agree more with your full review!!Jennyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04905272108326085380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18468281.post-62040438193642351622018-01-04T15:47:59.786-06:002018-01-04T15:47:59.786-06:00"I agree with others that doing so is gossip&..."I agree with others that doing so is gossip"<br /><br />Seriously, gossip? I've foregone viewing the movie "The Witch" because people who HAVE seen it (and some who haven't, in fact) have stated that it includes the murder of a child, an entire family's death, and the main character converting to demonic witchcraft at the very end. Is this gossip? Should I spend valuable time exposing myself to it in order to decide for myself? <br />Jennyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04905272108326085380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18468281.post-45759566406012997012018-01-04T15:46:42.971-06:002018-01-04T15:46:42.971-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.Jennyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04905272108326085380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18468281.post-57885382856366913942011-09-08T12:50:02.614-06:002011-09-08T12:50:02.614-06:00Can I repost this on my site, Rethinking Vision Fo...Can I repost this on my site, Rethinking Vision Forum? My email is rethinkingvisionforum@yahoo.com.Rethinking Vision Forumhttp://rethinkingvisionforum.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18468281.post-55347473979866934662010-04-11T02:02:32.572-06:002010-04-11T02:02:32.572-06:00www.sangambayard-c-m.comwww.sangambayard-c-m.comUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02177712721406997899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18468281.post-81477173792180738922009-09-29T09:04:45.720-06:002009-09-29T09:04:45.720-06:00I don't think you need to have read the Botkin...I don't think you need to have read the Botkin sisters' book to process and comment on the philosphy behind "So Much More" and "Return of the Daughters". To comment specifically on the book and film would require you to read the book and watch the film. And you've read the book and posted a follow-up to this post.<br /><br />I think your point about the bondage that extra-biblical principles can bring is a good one.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18468281.post-63388228853154346032009-09-01T19:35:41.988-06:002009-09-01T19:35:41.988-06:00they even go so far as to criticize the missionary...<i>they even go so far as to criticize the missionary work of Amy Carmichael and Mary Slessor</i><br /><br />Mary Slessor? They dare compare themselves to her? <br /><br />I'm not Christian, but I have read her biography (several versions of it) and she was a force to be reconed with.Anonymous Atheistnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18468281.post-79407758272995890552009-08-10T11:05:53.622-06:002009-08-10T11:05:53.622-06:00I'm with you. I've listened to some messa...I'm with you. I've listened to some messages on this topic by the Vision Forum people, and I was saddened by the lack of scriptural support offered for their view. Tradition and "they way things used to be" are not strong enough arguments for me.<br /><br />Nowhere in the Bible do I see that daughters are suppose to be a helpmeet to their dads. That's mainly the wife's job.Kristen@TheFrugalGirlhttp://thefrugalgirl.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18468281.post-82161461048342663992009-07-29T23:48:58.773-06:002009-07-29T23:48:58.773-06:00an addition to my prior post, the only reason I po...an addition to my prior post, the only reason I posted anonymously is because I didn't know how to not do that, don't have a google account and wasn't sure what open id meant or name irl meant. Thanks,<br />KimAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18468281.post-79216420687344814562009-07-29T23:45:55.641-06:002009-07-29T23:45:55.641-06:00May I ask where I would have fit in this situation...May I ask where I would have fit in this situation and many others like myself? I got saved at 17, my family were not christians, my father was in prison most of my life and my parents were divorced. My mother made all of the kids move out (I was 24 at the time). I served the Lord in many ways caring for the poor in inner city ministries. God used me to bring hope and healing to the brokenhearted. Those were some of the greatest times of my life. It seems like a lot of christians (especially home-schooling ones) turn inward and are self (family) focused. The family, to me, seems to almost become an idol. There are so many broken families out there, that don't all fit in to this perfect scenerio (which I do not believe is perfect and God ordered)that is portrayed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18468281.post-60769377574508375842009-06-24T13:22:28.408-06:002009-06-24T13:22:28.408-06:00Esther, if you'll note at the top of the post ...Esther, if you'll note at the top of the post I link to the lengthy review I wrote after reading the book. I agree--we must evaluate it according to the Bible.Charity Gracehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11689246981362864456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18468281.post-61589820830090187982009-06-24T13:11:23.174-06:002009-06-24T13:11:23.174-06:00I am a homeschooling mom with four girls between t...I am a homeschooling mom with four girls between the ages of 17 and 25.<br />None are married, courting, betrothed, or engaged. They are all happy that they are under the daddy's covering. I won't say that they are all always content to be at home, however, they are thankful that their daddy understands his responsibility to meet their needs until they do leave us to cleave to their own husbands. <br />As for the Botkins' book, my oldest daughter and I have both read it, and another daughter is now reading it. They agree that it is an encouragement for all young ladies. As with anything that we read, we must and do evaluate it according to the Bible. Anyone who reads any book other than the Bible and takes it as the Gospel is in trouble. This book was not meant to replace the Bible or be used as doctrine. It was meant to encourage families.<br />I personally recommend that you read it yourself before making such bold statements criticizing it. I agree with others that doing so is gossip and I was saddened to read such things on a website that appears otherwise innocent.<br />EstherEsthernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18468281.post-45767021661330149832009-03-02T23:15:00.000-06:002009-03-02T23:15:00.000-06:00"I personally know a family who has bought into th..."I personally know a family who has bought into the teachings of Vision Forum. It breaks my heart. We are to follow Christ and His teachings, not that of a particular man or group."<BR/><BR/>AMEN - I know several also - and it soooo hard to communicate with them now that they see themselves as set apart/better than the rest of us in the body of christ. These extra biblical ideas that are taken as truth - are destroying relationships. <BR/><BR/>buyer beware.. there are messages in these types of books that are greater than just the supposable virtue they are trying to sell. True holiness comes only from the blood of the lamb. <BR/><BR/>Thanks for looking closer at this book and the movement it has created. We need to look closely at what we put in our head and on our hearts.<BR/><BR/>ElizaElizahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12728841022216947805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18468281.post-54231134874902199312009-02-05T05:31:00.000-06:002009-02-05T05:31:00.000-06:00Thank you for so aptly, yet kindly, speaking the t...Thank you for so aptly, yet kindly, speaking the truth. As a pastor's wife, I have been very disheartened by the false teaching of these two well-intentioned young ladies.<BR/>Paul clearly states that single women are to use their singleness in service for Christ.<BR/><BR/>I personally know a family who has bought into the teachings of Vision Forum. It breaks my heart. We are to follow Christ and His teachings, not that of a particular man or group.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18468281.post-27432699372877026252008-11-17T22:05:00.000-06:002008-11-17T22:05:00.000-06:00I couldn't agree more that these young ladies are ...I couldn't agree more that these young ladies are spreading a teaching that has more to do with personal conviction than Biblical doctrine. God is building his kingdom with individuals not families. I would hate to think that my two girls had to spend their lives catering to me. That is why i married their mom. (lol)<BR/><BR/>I would be interested to hear their take on the judge Deborah. Not exactly an example of "biblical patriarchy"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18468281.post-35542022228777998772008-08-26T14:07:00.000-06:002008-08-26T14:07:00.000-06:00Thank you so much for posting this. I just recentl...Thank you so much for posting this. I just recently watched the documentary. I'm a young lady who has just finished high school. Oh how I am struggling on what to do now. Right now I am staying home but attending a good Bible collage for a year is a possibility. Perhaps even some mission work. I want to serve the Lord wherever I am.Bethannehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18397689675295631855noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18468281.post-83624520739558859572008-08-08T14:06:00.000-06:002008-08-08T14:06:00.000-06:00I have had opportunity and time to read the book. ...I have had opportunity and time to read the book. My thoughts:<BR/><BR/>I would not recommend it. <BR/><BR/>It has daughters learning from their fathers how to prepare to be wives for a future husband and learning how to be submissive to a husband by submitting to fathers.<BR/><BR/>I do not see a Biblical mandate for this teaching. I do see a role for older women as outlined in Titus 2...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18468281.post-54754148339895032412008-07-09T20:30:00.000-06:002008-07-09T20:30:00.000-06:00Taking things that other people say and spreading ...Taking things that other people say and spreading those things without actually checking the facts first is called gossip. It disturbs me that while you encourage us not to take what the Botkins say as truth (even though they are teaching biblical truths) you want us to listen to your review when all you have done is read a few amazon reviews and have not taken the time to actually read the book yourself. And just to clarify, just because a person is young does not mean that they do not have truths to share with older ladies, however, the Botkins specifically state that they are speaking to their peers, not to mothers or fathers. Just because they are young does not mean they don't know a whole lot more than some adults when it comes to living out God's word. Thanks!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18468281.post-18093983379291722452008-07-04T13:51:00.000-06:002008-07-04T13:51:00.000-06:00In reading the Titus 2 call to older women, the ca...In reading the Titus 2 call to older women, the call is to very specific teaching item and behavior: to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things-that they admonish the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, homemakers, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the Word of God may not be blasphemed. <BR/><BR/>It is one thing to chose to live in the home under the father and not be outside in the world. It is another to indicate that this is the "biblical norm" or "requirement". I do not see a requirement in scripture that this is the only choice for a Christian young lady. The real issue is does she continue to honor her mother and her father at this age. Honoring parents should last the lifetime, whether in the home or out of it. I have seen families suffer damage by the teaching that it is a biblical requirement that the daughter is to stay at home and serve her father until a young man marries her. <BR/><BR/>I believe that if Titus 2 older women teach what is found in the scriptures, God will honor that teaching. Young ladies have asked me if I have seen the movie yet or read the book. I have not yet, but that is part of my plan for this summer.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18468281.post-78782808594391271402008-05-22T07:14:00.000-06:002008-05-22T07:14:00.000-06:00I have to say that some of the info in this book w...I have to say that some of the info in this book was valuable to me, but issues like women missionaries, I felt was WAY off base. Excluding more modern missionary women, what about Mary Magdalene? Tabitha? Phoebe? I do believe there is Biblical precedence for women missionaries. I have struggled in the past with works and have come to know the grace of God and that is found in the Bible....JillYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17625780251521187343noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18468281.post-69860324832910103022008-01-11T09:52:00.000-06:002008-01-11T09:52:00.000-06:00Anonymous said:QUOTE I know that it was not just ...Anonymous said:<BR/>QUOTE <I> I know that it was not just some "teenagers" who wrote this book, but at least one godly father who strongly guided their pen.</I> ENDQUOTE <BR/><BR/>ME: That is two young girls and a grown man (a father).<BR/><BR/>Lindsey wrote:<BR/>QUOTE<I><BR/>If we are going to be Biblical, we need to look at things in a Titus 2 fashion, and they do not fit the rolemodel to be teaching elder women on the subject of marriage and daughterhood</I>ENDQUOTE<BR/><BR/>I agree and I think we need to sit up and take notice! <BR/><BR/><B>When it comes to marriage</B>, Titus 2:3-5 calls upon the <B>older women</B> to teach the younger… not the daddy, nor the young women . I am convinced that God has His reasons for His instructions. Hadn't we best take His Word for it? (lest we be guilty of usurping HIS authority- YIKES!)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18468281.post-44535403314997803212007-08-06T14:32:00.000-06:002007-08-06T14:32:00.000-06:00Not ignoring comments, very busy week...Hope to ge...Not ignoring comments, very busy week...Hope to get back to this before too long!Charity Gracehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11689246981362864456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18468281.post-33766066405495375902007-08-04T09:32:00.000-06:002007-08-04T09:32:00.000-06:00Charity Grace,Thank you for this excellent and att...Charity Grace,<BR/>Thank you for this excellent and attractive web-site.<BR/><BR/>I appreciate your stated desire to live a life according to God's Word. My family and I share this desire with you. We, too, seek to align all of our thoughts, beliefs and actions with God's Word.<BR/><BR/>So, after reading your entire initial post, I was surprised that you would publish such strong public opposition to the book with such weak supporting evidence. <BR/><BR/>First of all, you said yourself that you did not read the book. You tried to justify this by saying that you had seen the trailer and read pros and cons about the book. But, this is no justification. In fact, it even further weakens your position, because you show yourself as one following the crowd rather than digging into the issue on your own. In addition, even after you finish the book, the only conslusion from you that would have influence at this point would be if you reversed your view. Haven't you set yourself up to "proof-text" their book, in order to support your prior public statements? Not that you would be intentionally dishonest, but that your presupposition about the book will inevitably shape your ability to rightly hear what they are saying.<BR/><BR/>Secondly, and most concerning, you only mention one Scripture reference in your entire initial post. In addition, you use the verse without any discussion of surrounding context, and you make the statement "the desire of an unmarried Christian woman is to serve the Lord--not to serve her father." Now, this is a perfect example not only of proof-texting but also of "adding to the Scriptures." You take a Scripture out of its context and then add to it with your words "not to serve her father." Ironically, in the way in which you use your only Scriptural reference, you give us an example of both proof-texting (snatching a verse from its context) and adding to Scripture, the very things you accuse the Botkin girls of. <BR/><BR/>So, don't you think your sisters in Christ, who at the very least appear to have devoted many hours of their life to this topic, deserve a much more thorough investigation of their book, and of the Scriptures, before you post a public statement opposing their ideas?<BR/><BR/>Now, my point is very simple. We should all be much more humble with how we handle God's Holy Word and with how we categorize the work of other Christians. We should be slower to judge and quicker to grant the benefit of the doubt to our siblings in Christ.<BR/><BR/>Thank you again for this excellent web-site and your desire for God's Word to reign.<BR/><BR/>Respectfully in Christ,<BR/>Matt<BR/><BR/>ps- By the way, I do encourage everyone to closely study all of I Corinthians 7 to get a sense of the surrounding context, to better understand the verse in question.Clarkshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00658630988439352726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18468281.post-54075504547292463342007-07-19T15:20:00.000-06:002007-07-19T15:20:00.000-06:00Hey Allison. I feel that I got a good feel for th...Hey Allison. I feel that I got a good feel for the book and its philosophies by reading reviews (*both* pro and con) and by reading extensively at the Visionary Daughters site. I'm also very familiar with many of the Botkin's views as I used to hold a lot of them myself. <BR/><BR/>If you read the comments to this thread, as well as other statements I've made on my blog, you will see that I agreed that I should read the book before making a *final* judgment, and I had it in hand within a couple days of making that commitment. I'm about halfway through. I find their philosophical arguments quite compelling on many fronts; however, my concerns as to their biblical interpretation are intensified even more by what I've read of the book. When I finish it I'll give a more complete review, highlighting its many pros as well as the cons.Charity Gracehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11689246981362864456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18468281.post-55922746832229879162007-07-19T14:00:00.000-06:002007-07-19T14:00:00.000-06:00Wow, I am really surprised that someone would wri...Wow, I am really surprised that someone would write such a critical piece about a book they havent even read! Doesnt really seem fair, does it? Or accurate.Allie P.https://www.blogger.com/profile/03579598032476812551noreply@blogger.com